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Thread: Check this out read from the bottom up ...Audatex at it's finest

  1. Join Date
    Jan 2009
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    1,350

    .....and another

    .....and this from the DEG web site ........ and are based on NEW AND UNDAMAGED PARTS BEING REPLACED ON NEW AND UNDAMAGED VEHICLES; therefore your discretion and experience as a repair professional must be used when estimating a damaged vehicle.

    The question is, who specifically wrote this 'advice' or was it a collaborative effort, and what is their factual qualification to make such statements? Is this a person or persons eminently qualified to make such factual comments? Or is it more of the same, what everyone has been fed their entire career so it must be so?

    Some how I must not have a logical thought process. Here we have a system that is for all intents and purposes evidencing errors as well as some sort of arcane methodology for determination of times by the providers, yet at the same time basically advising that "hey, these times are not meant to be accurate......they are a guide". Where does an effort on a time or operation reach a logical conclusion? When the data provider says "that's it...that's all you get".

    If the data is a guide, then what difference does it make if the data are wrong, since it is up to the "discretion and experience as a repair professional (note no mention of insurers here) must be used"?

    As for "the new and undamaged parts and new and undamaged vehicles"....what is their basis in fact that this is the case? Who says so? Don't all the data providers give times to R & I, repair existing, refinish ? Isn't that relative to the ability to cap times for example, a practice no repairer would follow unless forced by threats of lost business or substantially increased costs to fight every line on every estimate with the insurer?

    And this : All of the databases receive information from the vehicle manufacturers and provide that information in the estimating system to use for a guide to establish flat rate times. That certainly is a definitive statement to be making.....all. How does DEG know that for a fact, and what part of the information is relative to a repair...to what degree; what percentage of the time that is supposedly provided, which one would assume is an ongoing effort between the data providers and manufacturers. When there is an error, do they consult with the manufacturer, consult their own evaluations, or just talk about it in a meeting with their 'experts'?

    I could go on and on being picky. Perhaps the DEG is doing a service to the industry but they certainly ought to look at their qualifications of the data providers.

    None if these claims make a bit of sense to me, except one. All these contradictions, claims of this and that. Someone, 'splain it to me.

    The only thing that makes sense is they are doing a good job, one that needed to be done, showing in spades for all to see how inaccurate the data is, the data providers are showing how, giving rise to substantial questions about how the times/operations are derived, maintained and changed. And although the information is very small compared to the size of the complete repair data it is a damning indictment.....

    March would be proud.
    Last edited by Roy Smalley; 07-20-2010 at 12:29 PM.
    Roy Smalley,
    Texas

  2. Join Date
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    ....and this is a real stretch ....

    There is no substitute for the comprehensive training that is readily available from the companies that provide these estimating systems or for the first hand experience developed when working on the damaged vehicle.
    Roy Smalley,
    Texas

  3. Join Date
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill View Post
    Whatever became of the lawsuit filed against Mitchell International by Paramount Auto Body in Reno, Nevada? The suit alleged that the majority of the data used in the program is generated by insurance companies and not, as Mitchell states, by Mitchell editors. The suit goes on to state that times and labor values have been deliberately understated at the behest of State Farm and other insurance companies and that data mined from estimates generated by the program has been sold without the knowledge or permission of the shops using the program. The suit goes on to allege that Mitchell has actively been engaged in a conspiracy to the disadvantage of auto body repair shops.

    Bill, I understand the case is moving forward.
    Roy Smalley,
    Texas

  4. Join Date
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    Location
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    I think we should all follow this case very closely. I know the premise of this lawsuit is very near and dear to your heart as well as mine, Roy and if Paramount can prove their case, it could establish a precedent that can change this industry in a most positive way.

  5. A request for a cover letter and bio from me for the process....

    This is my cover letter minus the bio.....bio is pretty long won't bore you...


    Database Task Force
    Judell Anderson, CAE
    Administrator
    Alliance of Automotive Service Providers
    1730 New Brighton Blvd., #170
    Minneapolis, MN 55413


    RE: AASP and the Estimating Database Task Force


    To whom it may concern,

    Please find enclosed my curriculum vitae to serve as a bio for some of the areas of expertise I have obtained over my 26 plus years in the collision industry. In addition to those listed below I have also been very active in attempts to highlight the gross errors that are prevalent in the data being published for use in the collision and insurance industries. I have recently submitted and seen changed some of the largest corrections ever made in the data provided to these two industries.

    I am very well versed on all 3 of the major data provider’s p-pages and technical data and have in the past compiled lists of non included items that you have probably seen published nationwide. This list was first compiled by me and the late Carolyn Rack of Beyond Parts and Equipment. We merged our information and produced a list that has continued to pop up all over the United States in articles and over the internet with credits ironically extending to some that never edited one line from these lists.

    I have also made dozens of submissions to both the IP’s directly and the DEG in attempts to get the data studied and errors exposed. In the past I also have written to all the major IP’s and paint materials suppliers requesting specific answers to ongoing issues that plague the data and procedures needed to properly repair a vehicle. This information has been absent the data providers systems for years. This too was collaboration of sorts from many years ago with a gentleman from the Philadelphia area I named Ferdie Gonzales.

    I believe I posses the necessary skills and expertise to help continue to expose and perfect the issues that the DEG investigates and is able to publish on a national level. In addition it is my hopes to see things like internet data querying and immediate notification of duplication of submission identification as future improvements for the DEG.

    Please consider my application to participate as part of the Estimating Database Task Force. I believe I have the experience to help to improve the DEG for the future.





    Thank you

    Sincerely

    Mark A. Cobb
    Last edited by Mark Cobb -ME; 07-29-2010 at 09:08 AM.

  6. Join Date
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    Today 08:05 AM #355 Mark Cobb -ME Senior Member

    A request for a cover letter and bio from me for the process....

    This is my cover letter minus the bio.....bio is pretty long won't bore you...


    Database Task Force
    Judell Anderson, CAE
    Administrator
    Alliance of Automotive Service Providers
    1730 New Brighton Blvd., #170
    Minneapolis, MN 55413


    RE: AASP and the Estimating Database Task Force


    To whom it may concern, (snip...)

    Nice Mark, very nice. I truly hope they accept your offer to Help.
    That's my 2¢ worth for now. ( maybe ± a couple ¢ ) ---- Fred, ---- fredkolesar@verizon.net

  7. Join Date
    Jan 2009
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    A REAL world hands-on repairer!!!

    It's about time they included a real world, hands-on collision repairer who has first hand experience every working day with the inaccuracies of these systems.

    Even I realize it's far different behind a desk than it is out in the real world of our shop.
    "Better to die a hero, than live a coward."
    Charles Woods, father of slain SEAL Ty Woods

  8. August 18, 2010







    Mark Cobb

    Cobb’s Collision Center

    Windham, ME



    Dear Mark:



    Thank you for your interest in serving as AASP’s representative on the Estimating Database Task Force. You were among several well-qualified applicants for the position.



    Knowing first-hand the competencies necessary to fulfill the responsibilities of the position, Nick Kostakis and I – as AASP’s current representatives on the task force – have reviewed the qualifications of all applicants. In addition to technical knowledge of the estimating database systems, factors such as the applicant’s business type/size and geographic location were also considered.



    Although you were not selected to serve at this time, the decision in no way reflects on your abilities or qualifications. We are hopeful that you will continue to follow the activities of the Estimating Database Task Force and participate in other efforts to improve the collision repair industry at both the local and national level.



    Mark, thanks again for your interest. Your willingness to contribute your time and talent to AASP is greatly appreciated.



    On behalf of AASP,



    Rick Starbard

    President

  9. Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Ma.
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    488

    Do the words "over qualified" come to mind?

    Or are they looking for a "Yes Man"?

  10. Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Posts
    196

    I think they need a DRP shop owner.

    Just when is the tide going to change at the top level. Those of us that have survived this long defintley have something going for us or we would not be here.

    I personaly see time shortages accross the board and Motor vs ADP is something to behold. 1/10th short on every operation except for paint which was short 4/10ths on first panel. I can just line by line an Allsnake estimate and pick up 20%.

    No one can tell me this is not a doctored up profile for Allsnake.

    I for one appreciate you trying Mark Cobb we should never give up.
    "If Discussions with one's enemies could be worthwhile banks would invite robbers and burglers to their association meetings to discuss security"
    Jim Lynas

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