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Thread: Check this out read from the bottom up ...Audatex at it's finest

  1. Join Date
    Feb 2009


    That's it Bill. You're right on the money (or loss of) with every word.
    That's my 2 worth for now. ( maybe a couple ) ---- Fred, ---- fredkolesar@verizon.net

  2. I took it to Mitchell and Motors today

    Mitchells said 2.0 with upper panel removed......doesn't mention the other 8 panels that need to be removed to get to it....ongoing with them and should be interesting they too used the weld count line sheets to develop the numbers and as I was told the guy, yes one guy, that does the data entry and formulation of numbers must of used the Chrysler run sheets with all the hidden welds to develop those numbers....

    I can tell you right now these companies are ripe for the picking...you can't make this stuff up......but they are....right from the seat of their pants.....Mark your calendar........they are ripe for the picking

  3. Join Date
    Jan 2009

    Gee, where's the DEG when ya need them?

    Isn't this the type of information they have requested? But then again, one look at how this group is structured and who funds them, makes one question their effectiveness.


    Wow, and take a look at this cast of characters:


    Now someone remind me how many years we've been trying to bring issues to their attention without any substantial success??? Heck, by now I'm thinking of retiring. And some of these people are much older than me.
    "Better to die a hero, than live a coward."
    Charles Woods, father of slain SEAL Ty Woods

  4. Hadn't look lately....of course now I am more skeptical

    then ever before.....Isn't that the ASA board? These guys ever have time to repair a car these days?

    Who is Bud by the way? Anyone have any info on him?

  5. Join Date
    Jan 2009

    LOL... when you submit

    your inquiry "Surprise AZ" whaddaya expect?!?

    Database Enhancement Gateway
    PO Box 9198
    Surprise, AZ 85374

    I bet that is where Bud's apartment is at.
    ************************************************** *************
    When some company wants to change my estimate, I tell them there are over four million damaged vehicles I won't repair this year, I'm not going to lose sleep over one more.

  6. I let Wade have the DEG...I am having too

    much fun with the data providers directly....I sent off about 40 pictures today of the process......very detailed seems these data providers don't have a contact at any of the OEM's and one told me that "ONE" guy did their data figures.....each year...

  7. Join Date
    Jan 2009

    SCRS is one of the sponsors of DEG...

    ...and what a surprise (for you Mark P.!) to see so many data providers listed as sponsors. So just how far would they EVER push any issues?


    Gee, and our old industry friend Rick Turri is listed, and he's now with Audatex. It's a small world afterall!
    "Better to die a hero, than live a coward."
    Charles Woods, father of slain SEAL Ty Woods

  8. Mitchell am I really hearing this correctly.....

    This can't be real.......Body men out of the industry as late as 2 years ago looking at pictures and developing times........I need to start by saying that Greg was quick to respond and has told me they will be taking their note off the part and raising the time slightly......this is only a slight step in the right direction as I informed him that the part was far more labor intensive then they had addressed and that I was Master Certified so I might qualify as an "average technician".

    But to go on and hear that they do not use any type of science and have no real direct contact with the OEM's minus going to their websites and seeing what they publish....and scary and sad.....

    Using prior year models and similar vehicles is what I am told...no matter that they are not built the same and have no real bearing....

    Lastly the discussion goes to the systems being used as a bible.....I am being told that is not Mitchell and they do not tell anyone that....This is a guide only....but I could not get a satisfactory answer why it was necessary to alert anyone when a "time" was changed....I said at least make it a user option to turn off and on...why do I care if I change a bogus time and make it right why should it have some big flag on it..........

    Is anyone out there looking at these products? Roy after so many years you may have been right all along...maybe more from the quality of the product stand point more then anything but the key might just be in the companies.....

  9. Join Date
    Jan 2009

    We need to contact John Disher....

    ..as he must have decades of information, documentation and communication during his many years regarding the fraud he uncovered by the data providers. Everyone could chip in on this effort, as it's certainly an issue which effects us all, including the CONSUMER!

    Still waiting for Ron Pyle to respond to this issue, as he's listed on the DEG website, and his national association is one of the sponsors of DEG. But then there's that pesky conflict of interest between NACE and the data providers.

    Time for transparency all the way around.
    "Better to die a hero, than live a coward."
    Charles Woods, father of slain SEAL Ty Woods

  10. Mitchells written response

    Mark, we have updated the labor time for the Lower Liftgate Opening Panel, per your input, and removed attached labor note as follows. User to refer to Labor General Information for operations not included in labor time.

    Panel, Liftgate Opening


    Labor General Information
    LABOR TIMES: THE LABOR TIMES SHOWN IN THE GUIDE ARE IN HOURS AND TENTHS OF AN HOUR (6 MINUTES) AND ARE FOR REPLACEMENT WITH NEW, UNDAMAGED PARTS FROM THE VEHICLE MANUFACTURER ON A NEW, UNDAMAGED VEHICLE. Any additional time needed for collision DAMAGE ACCESS, ALIGNMENT PULLS, NON-ORIGINAL EQUIPMENT or USED PARTS should be agreed upon by all parties. Times for some operations are applicable after necessary bolted, attached or related parts have been removed. Exceptional circumstances, including all the sub-operations or extra operations, are indicated as notes throughout the text or are identified in the Procedure Explanations. The actual time taken by individual repair facilities to replace collision damaged parts can be expected to vary due to severity of collision, vehicle condition, equipment used, etc.

    LABOR CATEGORIES: The labor times shown in the Guide fall into various categories (for example: body, frame, mechanical) as determined by the repair facility's operating procedures. As a guide, components for which R&I or R&R is commonly considered to be a mechanical operation when performed in a collision repair environment are designated with the letter "m" in the text. These designations are only a guide. They are not necessarily all inclusive, nor do they suggest the application of a labor rate.

    WELDED PANELS: Replacement labor times for new panels that are joined by welding include the necessary use of inserts and accepted sectioning guidelines developed by OEMs, I-CAR, and TECH-COR. The labor times for welded panels include grinding, filling and final sanding with up to 150 grit sandpaper to match the original panel contour. Labor times do Not-Include the Feather, Prime and Block refinish operation. See Feather, Prime and Block.

    ADHESIVE PANEL BONDING: Replacement labor times for panel bonding include all necessary weld applications identified by adhesive material manufacturers and OEM guidelines. Users should reference best practices procedures from bonding material manufacturers and/ or OEM guidelines before selecting this replacement method option.

    SHOP MATERIAL: The labor times shown in the Guide do not take into account the cost of any materials, or the cost of hazardous materials recycling or disposal.

    DISABLE and ENABLE AIR BAG SYSTEM: The labor times shown in the guide represent the procedures necessary to disable and enable the air bag system in order to replace air bag system components and/or to perform repairs not related to the air bag system; e.g., welding. This procedure includes visually monitoring the air bag warning light to verify proper system functionality. The allowance does not include trouble shooting of the system if proper system functionality is not present.

    DIAGNOSE AIR BAG SYSTEM: The labor times shown in the guide to diagnose air bag systems include system disable and enable, removal and installation of air bag module(s) (where required), installation of appropriate simulators, and retrieving and clearing of trouble codes. Time for specific troubleshooting of Diagnostic Trouble Codes (DTCs) is not included.

    GLASS LABOR TIMES: The labor times shown in the Guide for glass listed with the NAGS part numbers are Mitchell times, not times from NAGS. Glass labor times are for remove and replace (R&R), i.e., removal of the existing glass and its replacement with new glass. Some glass labor times are also shown for removal and the later installation (R&I) of the same glass.

    STRIPES, DECALS and OVERLAYS: The labor times shown in the Guide for these items refer to installation only.

    TECH-COR REPAIR INFORMATION: The labor times shown in the Guide for TECH-COR repair procedures are supplied by Mitchell. TECH-COR does not endorse, sanction or otherwise approve such times. TECH-COR publications are copyrighted material. However, reproduction of TECH-COR bulletins is permitted as long as the bulletin is reproduced in its entirety, including source attribution. TECH-COR bulletins may be obtained be
    contacting: TECH-COR, Inc., Technical Communications Dept., 100 East Palatine Road, Wheeling, IL 60090; Phone: 847-667-2341.

    BASE MODEL VEHICLE: Vehicle with the minimal level of equipment available from the manufacturer.

    TYPES OF VEHICLES: The types of vehicles covered are regular production models only.

    COMPREHENSIVE LABOR TIME: While completeness is strived for in each Guide, there will be instances in which a labor time has not been established for an operation. If an item requires replacement and is being replaced as an individual item but shows no time, a time should be agreed upon among all parties and recorded on the damage report. It also should not be inferred that a component with no established Mitchell labor time has been included in another component's replacement allowance.

    PROCEDURE REFERENCE: Throughout each vehicle "service'' there are Procedure Explanation reference notes located immediately following the main section headings. Example: BUMPER/FRONT PANEL is followed by, "Use Procedure Explanations 1, 3 and 28 with the following text.'' This indicates that the text portion and the Procedure Explanations for Front Bumper, Front Panel and Refinish should be used in conjunction with one another when writing a damage report. LABOR RELATED NOTES IN THE TEXT PORTION OVERRIDE THE PROCEDURE EXPLANATION PAGES.

    PROCEDURES: The Procedure Explanations on the following pages outline the operations which are or are not included in the labor time listed in each vehicle "service.'' You are encouraged to become familiar with these procedure pages to be sure you have a thorough understanding of the Mitchell approach to collision estimating.

    The left Included Operations column means that the labor time shown in the Mitchell Collision Estimating Guide text includes that particular operation or operations.

    The right Not Included Operations column means that the labor time in the text does not include that particular operation or operations. Performance of one or more of these operations may or may not be necessary as determined by the individual job requirements. If an add-on time has been established for any of these operations it will be shown in the text. If a time has not been established or if the add-on time is dependent on conditions that vary due to collision damage (example: access time, free up parts), the additional time should be recorded on the damage report. Labor times relating to the repair of a damaged panel or the use of used parts would come under this category.

    Additions to Labor Times
    Due to the wide range of collision damage and vehicle conditions, labor times for the following operations are not included in the Guide.

    * ACCESS TIME: Remove extensively damaged parts by cutting, pushing, pulling, etc.

    * ANTI-CORROSION RUST RESISTANT MATERIAL: Remove and/or apply weldable zinc primers, wax, petroleum based coatings, undercoating or any type of added conditioning.


    * DETAIL: Clean vehicle to pre-accident condition.

    * DRAIN & REFILL: Fuel (see fuel tank)


    * Time to remove and install as necessary, includes wiring and/or wiring harness and computer module.

    * Time to reset memory code function (example: seat position, radio
    presets) when battery has been disconnected to perform repairs.

    * Time to complete computer relearn procedures for proper operation of vehicle systems (example: power sunroof, power window) when battery has been disconnected to perform repairs.

    * FABRICATION: Fabrication of reinforcements or inserts (new component not cut or manufactured from existing or new part, but from raw stock).

    * FREE UP PARTS: Time necessary to free up parts frozen by rust or corrosion.

    * MEASURE AND IDENTIFY: Structural damage by comparing vehicle underbody, underhood, and upperbody reference points to accepted, OEM-based dimension specifications to identify damage to unibody vehicles.

    * PLUG AND FINISH HOLES: Time to plug and finish unneeded holes on parts being installed.

    * REPAIR OR ALIGN: Parts adjacent to parts being replaced.

    * REWORK PARTS: To fit a particular year or model (example: cutting holes for lamps, modifying a radiator support).

    * TAR AND GREASE: Removal of these or any other materials that would interfere with operation.

    * TRANSFER TIME: For welded, riveted or bonded brackets, braces or reinforcements from old part to new part.

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