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Thread: Something new every day

  1. Join Date
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    Something new every day

    I missed this new association back in January. "SCRS and Michell" now associated. I particularly like this phrase "........ Database Enhancement Gateway, which works with information providers like Mitchell to answer repairer and insurer questions about the nuances and intricacies of their estimating systems".

    "Nuances and intricacies"? Wow.

    Again, after many years I must ask again, "why does a third party get involved with 'asking questions' about 'nuances and intricacies' when there is neither"? Better question would be "why do IP's exist at all"? Apparently SCRS, lets not let them forget, a body shop association.....still...doesn't have a clue, or are afraid to ask.....their new associate.

    Let's see now. How many decades has this charade being going on, and now we have progressed to discussing "nuances and intricacies"?

    The worst decision I ever made in my long life was to get into collision repair. The best was when I got out. But I am still pissed at the lack of backbone shown by collision repair "leaders".


    http://www.repairerdrivennews.com/20...rtners-in-80s/
    Last edited by Roy Smalley; 11-27-2017 at 09:33 AM.
    Roy Smalley,
    Texas

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    Despite all the "nuances and intricacies", I am not aware of a single example of the DEG adjusting a "recommended" repair time downward. With over 10,000 inquiries about inadequate times or missing procedures, what credibility can any of the IPs claim and why would SCRS embrace them? I agree with you, Roy. Despite the trade affording me a handsome living over the years, the dignity associated with any degree of craftsmanship and pride in accomplishment is all but gone. All the meat is off the bones and scraps are all that remain. I can't say the trade wasn't personally gratifying when I entered it almost 50 years ago but Im so very glad I am no longer counting on it for my living. Toward the end of my career, I spent more time trying to be fairly paid than fixing wrecks. I just wish my oldest son had listened to me when I aggressively advised him not to try to follow in my footsteps.
    Last edited by Bill; 11-27-2017 at 06:04 PM.

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    Bill, the DEG string started September 25, 2009 by Cobb. An issue that has troubled me from day one, one among many, is how come IP's respond to the DEG who do not contract for the service is able to get answers when shops that purchase through contract, cannot? As the years have worn on, perhaps they have helped someone somewhere with 10000 inquiries, but goodness, how many hundreds of millions of individual transactions taken place and 10000 queries?

    Frankly and I am distanced from what goes on today, but a question. What has the DEG, backed by two or three body shop associations really accomplished for the industry? Has there been any real, statistically supported evidence of substantive change in amounts received, much less in the way all pricing is controlled thru the IP? Or is the DEG just window dressing, but for what purpose? Yes, perhaps, there is enough retained data in DEG that shows the before and after, despite being minuscule compared to transactions, but how many years and tens, probably hundreds of millions of dollars go to benefit those that profit from the IP's does it take?

    Speaking of Cobb. He did stay after the DEG for a long time. There is another attempt that I believe he was the very first to start in a formal fashion, and that is the list of Not Included Operations that he shared on ProD. Now that list has been expanded and used by many without any idea of where it started. He deserves the credit. When he began to move away from collision into other areas, our industry lost a true innovator, and leader. But Cobb doesn't suffer fools very well..............


    http://www.repairerdrivennews.com/20...with-insurers/ A big thank you should go to Cobb........... and Mark Pierson

    BHOM opinions of course......
    Last edited by Roy Smalley; 12-05-2017 at 11:02 PM.
    Roy Smalley,
    Texas

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    Received a email this morning regarding another mention of DEG that raised another question in my mind.

    Has the DEG by its' actions taken in good will, become a component of the notion that the IP's are THE way to determine the cost of doing business, and pricing of production by repairers?

    The IP issue is not one of a bit here and and a bit there; is it a question of the legality of the uniform approach for repairers to use to establish a price they charge in interstate commerce?
    Roy Smalley,
    Texas

  5. Join Date
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    There are two sides the the DEG coin, the first having established that the times prescribed and the operations necessary, as advocated by the 3 IPs, are often woefully inadequate if not downright wrong, always in the favor of insurance companies. Second, as you suggest, the involvement of DEG and the responses from the IPs, tend to validate the current status quo where the information provided by the IPs are the "Bible" from which repair times and procedures are obtained. How can the obvious contradictions be accepted and continue? Shops have been groomed over the years to believe there is no other way, allowing insurance companies to control the pricing before the accident even occurs, an observation made by a very wise man on this very forum.

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    The biggest fraud that I can see with the data times is that they assume that every mechanic is familiar with every car and has done the operation many times to fine tune this time.

    Even then, there is a big difference in repairing a car in New England in the winter V/S sunny California.

    What's more, it is an average time that cheats each mechanic on both ends of the average by not accounting on his skill or experience.

    One other fine point, where is there time for coffee and bathroom breaks and cleanup time . I pay the man for 8 hours and get, at best, 7 hours work. We work in the real world, not in a estimated data base book.

    Right about now, someone will mention beating Flat Rate. Would you want a worker cutting corners on your car to beat the time? (How else can he beat the time if the listed time is a real true time?
    Last edited by Roger Walling; 12-01-2017 at 07:55 PM.

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    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standa...(manufacturing)

    This is a simple explanation of the determinants necessary to arrive at a 'standard' time. Along in there you will see, a 'standard' time may be determined using exact definitions of the parameters that can be 'standardized', constant study is required to update the time even though all the recognized variables are allowed for. Regardless of how statistical and scientific the methods no time for the same exact task is forever.

    One determinant is the environment, the shop. The entire physical plant and operational support, must be identical to the next and on and on....and that is just for starters.

    Truly it is mind blowing how the insurance industry has been able to create and support the notion that, not only do they know the time before the damage is done, but to keep this scam going and advancing to their benefit. Other than ignorance or just plain stupidity, enclosed by fear and greed there is no rational explanation.

    And they don't do it all by themselves. EVERYONE helps, and their main helper is the repairer.

    It should go without saying but Roger reminded me, time is the base for developing cost. However. That does not imply that it has to be the declared basis for the invoice. Only in this industry. ===
    Last edited by Roy Smalley; 12-02-2017 at 05:19 PM.
    Roy Smalley,
    Texas

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    Although the "labor rate" has not been mentioned above, why does anyone allow a third party to dictate to them how much their expertise is worth?

    Does general Motors set their prices according to Ford's desire of profit per car?

    Is an item from a local retailer any better than the same item at Walmarts?

    Does a beer at the ballpark taste any better than the beer at your local bar? They certainly don't cost the same!

    There must be a reason things cost differently at different places!

    Why does anyone allow a third party to dictate to them how much their expertise is worth?

  9. Join Date
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    A few years back, when Mitchell was trying to sell their silly material calculating program, I attended a seminar presented by a Mitchell representative who proved himself to be not only a complete fool but a liar to boot. The subject or their prescribed times came up and he insisted that Mitchell conducted comprehensive, actual time studies. The audience then went on the attack.

    Since this was a paint material program, we asked how their "new and improved" system was any different than the old rate times hours formula, since it used a rate and labor time approach. In truth it was not but he tried valiantly to make us believe it was. To demonstrate the inaccuracy of the program, he was first asked how they continue to validate the myth that a blend panel only requires half the labor time and half the material consumption as a full refinish, especially in light of the actual labor studies that revealed that not only does not take less time, it can actually take more. He insisted that he had witnessed actual time studies that verified the times they advocated. That's when he lost the audience.

    The DEG then came up and he was asked how and why the DEG exists if actual time studies have been conducted; "Why are they continually adjusting your times upward and adding required processes if you have actually performed the repair? Which is it, were there actually no time studies conducted, as you insist, or were they conducted and some required processes omitted and times mitigated to keep some of your other customers happy? That's when he really started tap dancing.

    Then he was asked how they determine what is a mechanical operation and which is a body operation, and assign different rates for each category. After trying desperately to come up with an explanation and rambling around for a few minutes, this is what this fool actually said when a lady in the back of the room started pressing him. He actually said (and I have to paraphrase because I don't remember the exact hours), "For the same operation, which would you rather have, 1 hour at the mechanical rate or 2.5 hours at the body rate?" I challenged him to explain his answer, "Considering that they had actually conducted time studies, the time is the time, what does the rate have to do with anything?" Obviously, he had no answer and the meeting concluded when people got up and left.

  10. Join Date
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    As you well know Bill, the facts are, they have no answers because there are none that can be supported by logic, science, statistics or anything that can be measured.

    Period.

    And for anyone to claim otherwise, to cooperate with or in any way lend credence are foolish. But this industry is replete with those.....
    Last edited by Roy Smalley; 12-02-2017 at 05:32 PM.
    Roy Smalley,
    Texas

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